@rysiek What did I miss? Seems at least the server repo has been updated - about time!

@rysiek Hmm. Mixed feelings about this one... In your opinion, is this an all-bad thing or are there some uptakes to it?

@h3artbl33d look, I recognize that many places in this world have no reasonable banking services available, and that a lot of people have no access to digital payments that would otherwise make their lives better.

If you ever tried sending any money to Africa, or, you know, between EU and US, you know what I mean here.

At the same time, Signal Desktop remains crap ("optimizing database" ⏳, and then words appear seconds after I type them) and Signal mobile tends to fall minutes behind Desktop.

@h3artbl33d plus, there are no Signal clients for a number of privacy-friendly platforms (SailfishOS, postmarketOS, Librem5, PInePhone, or you know: any mobile OS that is not Android or iOS).

*And* moxie refuses to federate because "too much work to keep up".

Dunno, maybe instead of going full crypto Signal could fix Desktop (and drop Electron in the process), and write a client for at least one non-duopolistic mobile platform?

@rysiek @h3artbl33d when we were doing Ubuntu Phone, Signal was actively hostile to us making a client.

...reason we ended up with good Telegram support.

@ted @rysiek @h3artbl33d Don't forget Telegram's server is proprietary and not to be trusted. Honestly I'm very concerned @PINE64 images ship with Telegram - that's my first thing to remove before going online.

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@gytis @rysiek @h3artbl33d @PINE64

To be clear, I'm not advocating for Telegram just using it to show the results of Signal having a policy against externally developed clients.

@ted @gytis @rysiek @h3artbl33d @PINE64 signal's policy is irrelevant. the client is GPL. you can fork it and talk to signal servers just like you can fork chromium and talk to google servers.

@sneak @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64 it is relevant, because if they wanted to, they could block your client. Signal is actively hostile to third-party client developers.

The right to fork is there, the right to use their servers is not.

@rysiek @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64 they can't block it without making their official client nonfree, as a fork would be indistinguishable to the server.

@rysiek @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64 you are conflating the developer releasing a fork with the end user using the server. there is nothing in the tos that says i can't use a modified client, and technically there is no way to prevent me.

@rysiek @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64 example: bob forks signal-client, is not a signal user. permitted under GPL. alice, a signal user, downloads the fork and uses it. permitted under the service's TOS.

@sneak @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64 can you please explain to me again how the GPL and client-server architecture works, as I am clearly unfamiliar with those concepts? :blobcatcoffee:

@rysiek @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64

then you know both developers and end-users have the right to use their servers regardless of client software

@sneak @rysiek @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64

They have an API key that they put in their builds and can rotate with updates. You can steal the key from the binary, but your client is going to end up unreliable as you constantly play catchup.

This doesn't matter if it is a single user, but if you're trying to provide it as a feature to many it effectively shuts it down.

Nothing in the GPL limits this.

@ted @sneak @rysiek @gytis @PINE64

There was a certain timeframe once the build keys were rotated, right? Rotating those keys too quickly would break legitimate clients - so it _might_ be doable.

@rysiek @sneak @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64 Signal was hostile to a fork of the Android client they developed. They are not hostile to independently developed clients. github.com/signalapp/libsignal

@be @rysiek @ted @gytis @h3artbl33d @PINE64

most upstreams that get forked in open source are hostile and/or unreasonable. that's why people fork them.

upstream being hostile to forks is not a signal thing. fork away.

@sneak @be @rysiek @ted @gytis @PINE64 Unfortunately, that is true. I can name dozens of examples where hostility and/or rogue behaviour against forks happened. It's sad.

@ted @gytis @rysiek @PINE64

My bad, apologies for interpreting it incorrectly.

I share your thoughts. Ideally, Signal should embrace the community, developers, etc. Develop a SDK, implement federation, ditch the cryptocurrenxy, etc.

Plz, Moxie. Stawp.

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